Can Black People Be K-pop Idols?
Can Black people be K-pop Idols? It’s a loaded question. There have been Black idols in K-pop’s past and future. For example, Fatou of Blackswan is K-pop’s first idol of African decent. (I had the pleasure of interviewing her for Rolling Stone earlier this year.) Her debut was in 2020, which was years ago, but we haven’t seen another Black idol since then. Read (or listen) along to hear main host Bora, co-host Lars, and special guest Rakiyah’s thoughts on the matter. Don’t forget to check out part 2 once you’re done!
Bora: I want you to clarify to your audience and our audience, are you aiming to become a [Black] K-pop idol?
Rakiyah: So I’m glad I have a platform where I can further explain this, because I can understand a lot of misconceptions that’s going on. I think a lot of people who are into Korean music, especially different [K-pop] fandoms, we tend to attach everything as K-pop, but I think it’s good to start to understanding that everything isn’t considered pop music just because Korean [is] incorporated in it. So, no, I am not a K-pop idol and I actually do not wish to be a K-pop idol, just personally for me at my age now and my own personality. I just don’t think that’s the direction I want to go as an artist.
I’m RnB, you know, I’m okay with venturing on a different genres, but I’m an RnB singer.
We wouldn’t technically call Jay Park, you know, K-pop we wouldn’t call BIBI K-pop, but I think a lot of international fans really are the ones who are attaching K-pop to everything. I think that the group is doing Korean music that’s in pop. I will say that’s K-pop. If they’re going through a “trainee” session, or if they are signed to predominantly known K-pop entertainment labels, like YG and everything, I can understand the attachment, but I think it’s so important for people to not attach one label to an entire music industry.
Just like you wouldn’t put that on actual people in their culture as one blanket statement. So I’m glad you asked. No, I’m not a K-pop idol and no, I don’t wish to be, cause I know a lot of people that stirring up a lot of things on internet as I’m growing as an artist and I’m explaining a thousand times, like, “don’t worry, I’m not a K-pop idol.” I don’t want to be, nothing against K-pop idols or those who are non-Asian K-pop idols, it’s just not my direction.
Bora: Have you been accused — this kind of adds on to what you’re just saying, but have you been accused of “ruining K-pop,” whatever that means, because Alex Reid has also told the same thing when she was part of Rania?
Rakiyah: Unfortunately, I do have that, you know, to be very transparent and say yes. And it’s such an odd thing because it’s not coming from Koreans or native Koreans in Korea or in America or anywhere else, it’s actually coming from non-Korea based fandoms — international fans. And I think I kind of forgive it a little bit, but at the same time, you know, I’m not going to be bullied on internet for something that I’m not harmfully doing.
There’s a lot of hypocrisy going on. So I’ll be told, you know, when I first talked about the premiere of “Like You” coming out, different magazines were talking about it. I think I found out one day it showed up on All Kpop’s website, I guess a fan, you know, submitted it as an article and All K-pop took it. Naturally, that got a lot of attention. This is not even me promoting it on that level at all, because I would never submit this to K-pop predominant platforms without making sure I let them know I’m not X, Y, and Z, please make sure, you know, we consider them as RnB artists, an American RnB artists.
So that kind of went out of my control. When I saw the reaction, I’m gonna be honest, like I would say predominantly all of it was positive because a lot of international fans, they love to see someone that maybe correlates to them or looks like them in that space or doing something that maybe they wish they could.
But, you know, there’s definitely people who were very upset. There was a lot of anti-blackness obviously involved, which we can’t even deny or lie about. A lot of people said I’m ruining K-pop or I’m trying to dominate Korean space, “leave it to them”, “it’s their own space”. “They already don’t have representation outside of Korea”, which to me that also doesn’t really make sense because I, at the same time, I do understand, but if I was mad at, let’s say a nation, like Jordan. And I’m like, how come you don’t have enough Black representation? Well, is that the predominant culture there? Like, it was just, was really weird to see people take to be that.
And yeah, I got a lot of people who are upset. A lot of people call me a Koreaboo you know, and this is not even the song. They don’t know who I am. They probably have never checked my social media and not my Korean YouTube channel. The song didn’t even come out yet. And these are like assumptions being made. I don’t really care what people think about me on internet. So it was just, was interesting to see people say that. I personally one hundred percent disagree with that statement completely.
Lars: Just to piggyback off of that, I don’t know what this fascination or a fixation on whenever an artist like yourself wants to just make a name for themselves in music. There’s this weird vitriol and anti-blackness that pops out there, like you said, you don’t see that with the Korean fans. It’s international fans have this hunger to be represented as fans within themselves, but then they get rude, like gatekeepe-y. For some reason, I don’t know what it stems from, but they’re like, “Oh no, you’re not allowed to do that because of this, that, and the third are like, “Oh, you’re ruining this.”
The genre is originated in Korea, but you know, you can’t just police someone and say this about them or that about them, or make all these off-handed assumptions without looking [into it.] There’s a lot of toxicity I think that’s going on in the fandom, which makes it very hard for people to express themselves.
I think in our last episode, I was saying how I forgot the artist, but it was either, it was either Jay Park or G Dragon who had a Black girl, a female dancer, in one of his videos and, you know, international K-pop fans were just so pissed and angry. They were like, “Oh, why she’s not even pretty,” “why is she in the video?” and why is this, that and the third? And you know, my whole thing is that, I also agree, I think it does people a disservice to lump all Korean music as K-pop. There is Korean hip hop, there’s Korean underground, you know, Korean rock, Korean indie… and the only example of like an actual, in my opinion, like Koreaboo band that I’ve ever seen was this all white male band from like, I don’t even remember the state, but it’s from the United States. They had never been in Korea, but they were like, “oh, we’re going to be a K-pop idol band.”
And it’s like what are you even talking about? They made themselves look like K-pop idols. I thought that was just weird and appropriative because you can tell they’re capitalizing off the popularity and the sound without actually having any appreciation for the culture. Where, you know, you [Rakiyah] like wanting to do RnB, I think is showing that there’s room for everyone.
Like, I think you can have, even though she’s Japanese, you can’t have Utada Hikaru to kind of navigating between two worlds as this RnB artist who is also Japanese or BoA who also experiments with different genres and not allow other people of different races to have that same opportunity too. So I think there’s just a lot of changes that need to be made.
Bora: Is it fair to say K-pop should be Korean or other Asian people’s thing since there’s not much representation for them in Western media, what do you think?
Lars: I would say… I think of it almost like percentages. It would have to be a 70, 30 thing. Obviously it’s their culture and it’s their country. So, you know, it would be a bit arrogant to be like, “oh, well we want to take.” It would be exactly how Black people feel when people steal from them. It’d be like, “oh, well we want this and we’ll take it.” So, you know, I’ll give them that autonomy of allowing them to have that representation. But honestly, I think once 2016 hit and BTS hit America, man, they are– I think it’s only going to get bigger from here. And since they are now in mainstream global attention, they should have that 30% of being inclusive and opening the avenue for other new artists. Because again, with Jay Park or Utada Hikaru, they’re clearly Korean and Japanese, respectively, but they’ve also integrated themselves really well with American culture too, where I don’t bat an eye if they do that stuff. And I don’t question why they’re doing it.
And I think Korea needs to get to that point where they allow other artists. If I wanted to release a Korean indie album I don’t want people to be like, “well, why are you doing it? Well, why aren’t you here?” I’m like, well, because I live here and I also sing. So, you know what I mean? So I think they should be mindful. They should have that autonomy, but also leave room for inclusivity. Don’t just shut everyone out. Cause then I think there’s going to be stagnant too.
Bora: Exactly. That is another point that I thought needed to be brought up is exactly what you said that you’re going to be stagnant. There’s not going to be a lot, much growth. If people don’t start seeing themselves represented in something that is becoming more popular than other spaces other than their home country. Because like what Jay– I know these companies know this. And they’re not publicly doing anything to show that, know this, but they’re making moves behind the scenes. It’s very clear that they are. And I think that it’s fair to say. I understand because as Black people, we understand what it feels like to not be represented or to not to see the representation we want. So exactly what you said, like they have every right to say that, however, in the same breath, K-pop is not just from Korea, it takes inspiration from Black music. So to say that–
Lars: I remember 2011 when there was the era of dubstep and I was like, what is this? And I remember another, I’m not going to say the year because I don’t want any stans after me. But the reason I kind of took a hiatus and retired temporarily from K-pop is because there was one year near the end of my tenure, where all of the debuts were really kind of flat and stale. And I was like, “Mmn mnn baby, they ain’t no growth. I don’t know what’s going on. Y’all all sound the same. You all look the same now. I need to step back.” And that’s what happens if you don’t include people or spice it up a bit. I think because this era that they have right now is really good. But, you know, there’s only so much that you could keep regurgitating until it starts to be old. And you’re like, well, you know, what are we doing? Because the thing about trends is that they move at lightning speed. And if you’re still in the e-girl, e-boy, like super, super like poppy unique, diverse, like thing you’re going on with right now, visually and musically, then, you know, you’re not gonna see the– you’re not going to realize the potential of what you could actually create.
I think this, this new Hallyu wave that, we’ve been seeing this new era of the, Hallyu wave, rather that we’ve been seeing since like 2013 up until now has heavily borrowed from Western culture and Black culture too. So it’s almost an oxymoron to say that it should be their thing. When you know, I see them incorporating elements of trap, RnB, even the way they talk all this Black culture into their music. And they want to police it to be something that’s only themselves like– say if this was the era of like HOT or like that trot era where it was purely Korean music or purely like Korean folk or even the very early stages of K-pop where I could just tell that the sound was very distinctly Korean… those types of bands. Then I can be like, well, okay, because this is a different sound. You’re bringing a very specific flavor to the scene right now so it makes sense that you’d want to kind of enrich that and nurture that for yourselves. But if I’m seeing BTS or like Red Velvet, Everglow all these bands doing the, this music that if it wasn’t in Korean, it could make itself at home at like an RnB or hip-hop station. Then I think that makes no sense to like shut people out because then you’re being culture vultures in your own right.
Rakiyah: I honestly think. I’ve realized what it stems from. And like I said, I’m always the type of person where I make sure I look at both sides of the spectrum, not just my own bias side, you know, as the artists, as the black artist.
Part of it is when we do see non-Asians who don’t live in Asian nations decide to get involved [by] incorporating the Korean language, because there is a style that K-pop has originally in Korea, but don’t forget pop music, RnB music, jazz music, rap music that didn’t originate in Korea. Right? You have nations Western nations and predominantly Black culture that is the origination of those genres. So international fans getting upset because it’s like, all right, now you’re going to give us this washed down version of the genre music that we all like so much. So I get it.
But at the same time, I think there’s a lot of fetishism and fantasies involved. I think for some fans, especially when they’re not Korean themselves. There’s this extreme attachment to individuals. And we all know as awesome as Korean music industry is and a lot of people in the fandoms are amazing people. There are some who have taken things to an entirely different fetishizing level of Korean men and women. And when you tend to do that, anyone who doesn’t look like what you like and they come into those spaces, you’re going to get upset. So the ones who are screaming, “Hey. You’re messing this image that I took so much time to love so much and commit to and support. Now you’re messing up that image,” and then you have people who have own insecurities.
You know, there’s probably people out there who wish to see themselves in those spaces, but they’re not. So it’s more sometimes of a jealousy, anger instead of a support. But I think [there’s] different reasons on this spectrum of why people are upset for non-Asians to be in this [K-pop] space or why people are upset for Black people in the space. And if you’re upset specifically for Black people to join a space of their culture, that’s literally replicated of their genres, that are literally replicated or when black people are hired since the nineties to go to Korea and write these bops for your favorite and create these dances for your favorites. It’s literally– you can look into– all you have to do is your research to see YG when he was an artist. And when he started his label, there is literally verbiage of when he’s explaining that his inspiration came from going to the U.S., Western country within music. He said how he was inspired by Black people that he met. So don’t be upset that Korea wants to diversify and join everyone else to be inclusive. How are you mad at a nation or labels for who are choosing to be inclusive by hiring Black or non-Asians into their spaces while you’re still upset? Huh? It doesn’t really make sense to me.
When anyone, even if they are Asian say Non-Asians or Black people being a part of the Korean music space, especially if you’re invited in or like myself creating opportunities around yourself, you hear a lot of, “well, they don’t have enough representation.” And it’s like, because you are welcoming an entire different culture or nation to your own self. They’re already spreading. We are creating their representation to spread and maybe people are inspired by the language to say you’re taking away representation. I think they’re not really looking at it as a global thing, because like I said earlier, that’s like me complaining, not seeing more Black representation in media in a nation where there’s not many black people, it’s like, “well, they don’t have enough representation.” Well, there’s a lot of Korean artists who don’t speak English as well. So that’s why they have labels who are trying to incorporate different languages to be able to spread to a bigger audience, to be able to have audiences to say, okay, I understand this music because of this album in English, but the moment someone. Who speaks English decides to incorporate and do the exact same opposite. It’s an uproar. And now it’s a lot of gatekeeping. Well, what would the world be? If Western or specifically Black people across this globe gatekeeped our language, our vernacular, our fashion, our braids, our things, our genres, our dances…. What will the world be right now if Black people gatekeep that? Because if that’s how we’re trying not to be progressive, moving out of 2020 to be inclusive while respecting people’s culture, then let’s all gatekeep then and watch. Where are those best sounds coming? Where’s those best dances coming from?When you look in Korean culture and you like to see what’s their history, it’s the Josen era. It isn’t durags. It isn’t hip hop. It isn’t pop music. So let’s not forget where some of these things originated from to say, “yeah, we love it when we can borrow these things and love these things and copy these things. And we love it when our faves copy those trending”– what seems as trend, but they’re actually people’s culture –”We love it when they have parts of the Black culture, but we don’t want you in this space.” That’s already a problem because unfortunately Black people around the world are already told so many times we don’t belong in spaces.
While we watch the world love what we have, love what we do, replicate it and some even steal it. And you still telling us that we can’t participate? Absolutely not. Times are going to change. And I think there there’s a lot of people in Korea from my experience living abroad and my experience of learning about some of the labels there. They’re ready to be progressive. Don’t stop. Their growth of them wanting to be progressive.
Lars: You hit the nail on the head.
Bora: Honestly, but no good point. And the Korean government, actually in early 2019, issued guidelines that were meant to diversify the images the industry portrays and it criticizes the similar appearance. Such as skinny body figures, light skin color, body conscious clothes, et cetera of idols.
And this was later backtrack due to public outcry due to claims of censorship and, the threat of not seeing their faces. So by their faces I mean, people were kind of upset thinking this would kind of maybe some of their faves, they wouldn’t get to see them as much on stages or TV shows. So I was wondering whether you guys thought this was a good step in the right direction, or if this was really even– cause I feel like for me… people could interpret this as, “oh, maybe more foreign, non-Asian idols could come out of that guidelines that they’re trying to issue. [But] I kind of feel like it’s in the same breath of when idol say they like dark skin girls and then a lot of people would interpret that as, “oh, they’re talking about Black girls. They’re talking about brown skin girls.” I know it’s lovely to think like that, but I don’t think that’s what they’re really talking about. I think they’re just talking about that diversity within Koreans themselves, because hopefully we all know that not all Koreans are ghost white. I mean, honestly, most of the time that’s makeup, but there’s Koreans that are pretty dark, pretty tan, like, I have a friend from Jeju who she says when she goes into Seoul or whatever, put like stare at her. Cause that’s how tan she is.
With that being said what are your thoughts on these guidelines? And do you think that this –even though I did say that I don’t think it’s about foreigners– do you think it could be?
Rakiyah: Yeah, I kind agree. I think and I’ll just touch on it really quickly so that you can hop in Larisa, but I don’t necessarily know too much about this guideline. I thought I came across it some time before, but I didn’t consider it to be something that was specifically tailored to non-Asians. Like you said, I think it kind of tailors with them as a nation in their own culture. And, and just with beauty standards as a whole, right?
When you portray a certain beauty standard as a nation, or as a country or continent, whatever, you know, length, you want to go, you gotta be conscious that everyone doesn’t naturally fit under that umbrella of what you consider to be beautiful. Whether [it’s] being under a certain amount of grams or pounds or having fair complexions. A lot of those different things can come from different historical reasons that maybe Korea is trying to prevent that being: “this is what you got to look like young boys and girls,” “this is how you have to be in order to fit in the music industry.” I only say that because and we’re talking about music, the Korean music industry in particular, I’ve seen Korean idols. [They] go through hell on the internet. Unfortunately, I think some have committed s*****e over the bullying of their appearance. You know, you bully people as fans too; “I don’t like the hairstyle” or “she’s getting too dark” or this Filipino K-pop idol doesn’t fit the standard of looking really light and pales so they’re getting bullied. Their features a little bit different than native Koreans. Or even when K-pop idols who are Korean gain a little bit more weight outside of the beauty standard. What they go through as people, because they’re humans, but they got to watch the world criticize them about who they want to look like or how they want to look.
I give Korea –if thats the direction of that guidelines– I give them the kudos. I think that’s focused on them as you know, Korean citizens. I don’t think that really is something to be like, “Oh, well, that’s supposed to be inclusion to all, you know, everyone outside of Korea,” and maybe we could fit under that umbrella, but I think that’s something Korea is trying to work on as a nation.
…I don’t know [about] how the whole censorship thing will go. I don’t know how that prevents idols. I don’t really know how that is affecting that or let alone why, you know, certain fans are upset about that. Like I said, any major feelings of being upset is usually the international fans.
So I don’t really, really ever get certain things, but I think for a nation that’s constantly on the internet. And we do get to see a lot of in particular the idols suffer, getting cyber bullied, or harassed for not fitting that already created a standard of beauty and weight and complexion. I think it’s a good thing because not everyone, like you said looks the way we think everyone looks at us on the media. There’s a lot of international fans who have never been to Korea in their life. So what they get to learn about Korea is only on the internet, only on TV shows and dramas and these K-pop groups. It creates a false idea too, because I lived in Korea and I’ve seen all kinds of features. I seen all kinds of weights and complexions. And especially if you leave Seoul, you know, where the sun is more predominant or the people in that area outside of Seoul, don’t really cater into trying to be in a paler complexion beauty standards….
Listen to Part 2 of this episode here:
